Mosor and Biokovo Mountains, Croatia

19 Comments
  1. Profile photo of jeroen
    jeroen 5 months ago

    With all respect, but to me this feels a bit like an advertisement for a potential wolfkiller that shows people introduced animals. Anyone?

  2. Profile photo of Boeckli Author
    Boeckli 5 months ago

    There is no reason to advertise my guide Miro. I just recommend him if you want to see Aoudad, Mouflon and Chamois in Croatia and if you want to broaden your horizon and have an open ear for people in the country side who have to deal with wolves in their daily lives. Introduced animals: Chamois is native, but was extirpated. Mouflon was probably introduced around 2000 years ago. Aoudad is not an invasive species at Mosor – and I am very happy to see this species in Europe … just wait a few more decades of political unrest and climate change in Africa and what is left then. Best regards, Ralf

  3. Profile photo of jeroen
    jeroen 5 months ago

    With introduced I was only pointing at the aoudad. Good point about its future in Africa. Mouflon (eastern type) might have been native too once I think? I still do not like the idea of hunters who would love to kill wolves so they can shoot more of their introduced trophy game though. Best regards, Jeroen.

    • Profile photo of Mattia from Italy
      Mattia from Italy 5 months ago

      Absolutely no. Mouflon is a very ancient breed of sheep brought to Sardinia during Neolithic age from Anatolia. No fossil bones of Mouflon have ever been found in Europe. And, during historic (mostly Phoenician and Roman) and modern times, it has been introduced to Corsica and other Mediterranean places for various reasons.

      By the way, Italy is the only European place with Crested Porcupine because Romans introduced them in Italy because, at that time, it was a food delicacy. Romans used to bred even Western and Eastern Hedgehogs.

  4. Profile photo of jeroen
    jeroen 5 months ago

    ‘No fossil bones of Mouflon have ever been found in Europe.’
    Ik knew that they were introduced a long time ago, I just thought I red somewhere that hey once lived in the Balkans too. I guess that information was wrong or they ment pleistocene times?
    But Walkers mammals says ‘Ovis orientalis… probably in the Crimea and Carpathian mountains until about 3000 years ago…’, that’s Europe too right, so now I am even more confused…

    • Profile photo of Mattia from Italy
      Mattia from Italy 5 months ago

      The (few) fossil bones from ice age found in Europe regard an extinct “mountain sheep” and not Ovis orientalis. Paitings in Spanish caves depict Ibex females or maybe this “mountain sheep”. Surely no Ovis sp. lived in Europe after the ice age.

      Mouflon is now very widespread: it has been reintroduced even in Hawaii and Kerguelen island (!).

  5. Profile photo of Antee
    Antee 5 months ago

    Calm down please.

    Ralf did a very clear message with his information about the place and about the guide. Then it is up to everyone if you find this attractive or not.

    It is not Ralf who hate Wolves…

    Come on now. I have met a few guides as “Wolf-haters” myself during my years and others who favour shooting animals for various reasons.
    You mean I shouldn´t write Trip reports when having guides like this?

    Should mammalwatching take away every single report from Marrick game Farm – South Africa as well? Who is largely a game hunting farm with introduced animals and not for mammalwatching?

    You have a very rude tone against Ralf and I don´t think it´s fair as he only gave as much information he should do for an informative trip report.

    Let´s be friends 🙂

  6. Profile photo of Antee
    Antee 5 months ago

    Thank you for your kindness.

    I asked for a better tone and you answer me like this?
    What is wrong with people?

    Geez.

  7. Profile photo of Antee
    Antee 5 months ago

    IT´s ENOUGH!

    I asked for a better tone because you are rude against people who contribute to this site and after this you got 10 times worse.

    You call people “idiots”, “wankers”, “insane” and reprove them big time.
    I don´t know what is wrong with you and I guess I have nothing to do with it either but I don´t accept hearing this shit when the only thing I asked for is a better tone against people who contribute to the site and to me.

    You have crossed the line more then one time now and maybe it is time for Admin to make a statement how to behave.

    This behaviour against those who contribute will results in only one thing. No more posting trip reports and I think it would be a sad progress.

    Not the best advertising for wildglobetours…
    I´ll copy/paste your comments and take them with me to other plattforms.

    Furthermore, if you want me something I suggest you contact me privately on: https://www.facebook.com/andreas.jonsson.927
    No need to litter this thread with this tosh anymore. Mammalwatching is worth better.

    Thanx.

  8. Charles Foley 5 months ago

    I’m sorry Jason but I feel your derogatory comments towards another site user are not appropriate. I am not an administrator for this site, but if someone has a problem with a post or comment they should make their point in a strong but respectful manner and move on. There is no place here for calling people names. I believe all posts on this site are approved either by Jon or a trusted administrator, so I’m assuming this post was not deemed contrary to the site rules by him/them. If you don’t think that reports that mention hunting or hunting areas should be posted on the site, you should have that discussion with Jon.

    The internet is flooded with sites where people can get angry and shout at each other, but one of the pleasant things about Mammalwatching.com is that it is not like that, and I’m sure everyone would like to keep it that way. Andreas has given you his Facebook address and if you wish to continue the discussion with him I suggest you do so off-site.

    Charles Foley

    • Profile photo of Jon Hall
      Jon Hall 5 months ago

      Thanks Charles. I’m still in Peru with terrible internet so this is the first I have seen of all this. I’ve not read the post or the comments properly until I have WiFi so I’m not really sure what this is all about.

      Some comments about on the site need approval some do not. I’m not sure why that happens but I certainly would not have approved the comments that have now been deleted by someone. Thank you to who did that.

      Totally agree that if we disagree here then please do it politely. If you can’t do it politely then move to email or some other form of communication and be as rude as you want there.

      Jon

      • Profile photo of jasonwoolgar
        jasonwoolgar 5 months ago

        I do not generally agree with censorship and although I clearly find some of Andreas’ views reprehensible, I do not personally believe that any of our opinions should have been suppressed in this way.

        Instead, I find it perverse that in an age where ecosystems and species are disappearing at an unprecedented rate, some people are more offended by bad language than they are by the fact that one of the ‘members’ of this community has openly boasted about the fact that he recommends guides who kill wolves and deliberately withholds that information.

        That said, I will not now continue this beyond this post, but as I have explained directly to Charles, I have no access to Facebook and although Andreas had every opportunity to email me directly, this was the only platform on which I was able to respond to his comments.

        Thank you for the many messages of support that I have received and if anyone does feel the need to continue this further, they should also now contact me directly at Jason.woolgar@btinternet.com.

  9. Profile photo of jeroen
    jeroen 5 months ago

    Well well… this was not my intention: let’s try to be nice and polite people. I just like to see this blog to be about wild mammals; imported onces won’t find a place on my list, but that is just my opinion…

    To change the direction; can anybody enlighten me about the existence of Ovis orientalis in Europe?

  10. Profile photo of Antee
    Antee 5 months ago

    What are you talking about?
    Honestly? You are getting worse and worse in insulting other people.

    I have never ever supported hunting and you have no idea who I am or what I am doing.
    I am even a memeber of a organization here in Sweden who is against our hunting industry.

    You haven´t listen a word of what I am saying. Not a single word.
    You are too busy in insulting people here that you don´t even have time do listen/read/understand what they are saying.

    You are a complete idiot, obviously.
    Sorry that I go down to your own low level but what to do? I have asked you 4 times for a better tone now but you keep going with your complete stupid statements and instead of listening you getting worse by the minute.
    Now you are even fabricate things about me.

    Unbelieveble.

    As I told you, you have crossed the line more than once and it is time for Admin to kick this idiot out of here.

    I have contribute to the planets ecosystem and species conservation more than most, travelled to more countries than you can spell. Seeing more mammals than mostly can dream of. 20 feline species (soon 25)
    With all respect little man. I don´t think you are the one to judge others over what they do or not.

    Just for the record:
    More or less every guide in Mongolia have a hunting relation against wolves.
    Lynx tours in Estonia have help from local hunters.
    Marrick game farm in South Africa is a pure hunting farm with introduced animals.
    Many Wildlife guides here in Sweden are partly hunters and/or getting help from them.
    Guides in Yellowstone hunts with bow and arrow.
    Many guides in Botswana still thinks it was a disaster to ban hunting. Some of them are old hunting guides.

    And so on and on… I can continue long time.
    All trip reports who is involving these things you want to get rid off if I understand you right?

    And I told you that you should contact me personally if you wanted to continue. But not even this is you capable of…

    Like I said, unbelieveble.

  11. Profile photo of Antee
    Antee 5 months ago

    Any admin who can kick this moron and lier out of here?

    Mammalwatching is worth better than having idiots like this destroying peoples contribution to the site and people willing to post trip reports in here.

  12. Vladimir Dinets 5 months ago

    There are Early Pleistocene fossils of large argali-type Ovis from France, and early Late Pleistocene ones from the Crimea, but nothing younger than 100,000 years. I don’t know what the claim about the Carpathians is based on. Extensive Late Pleistocene fossil assemblages in Romania and elsewhere in Europe don’t include any sheep, unless I’ve missed something.

    As for aoudad going extinct in North Africa, it’s possible, of course, but there are huge introduced populations in North America, Spain etc. I don’t know if they are sourced from the same subspecies as the one in Croatia.

  13. Jerzy 5 months ago

    It is first time I hear that Aoudad are living wild in Croatia. I presume this is a small group not yet treated as established or ‘tickable’.

  14. Profile photo of jeroen
    jeroen 5 months ago

    Thanks Mattia, Jon and Vladimir.
    So my Walkers mammals claiming ‘Ovis orientalis… probably in the Crimea and Carpathian mountains until about 3000 years ago…’ was pretty wrong then… strange.

  15. Profile photo of Antee
    Antee 5 months ago

    I completely agree with you Charles Foley.

    I don´t see any point in insulting other peoples trip reports when they contribute to the site.
    Which in the end means only one thing – people stop posting trip reports.

    This behaviour is not the way forward. Which I also mentioned in my post and asked for a better tone.
    That was it. I even did it with a smiley. 🙂

    After that the hell break loose and I was called more ugly words in a day then I´ve seen on mammalwatchings whole existence. I hope these words never be seen here again. Not against me and not to anyone.

    I am still amazed of what really happened here.

    If you can´t handle trip reports with some sorts of hunting mention in it, without insulting people and calling them very ugly words, I don´t think mammalwatching is the site for you.

    I mean, we have trip reports from:
    * Marrick Game farm – South Africa. Who is a hunting-farm with introduced animals.
    * More or less every guide in Mongolia have a direct or indirectly relation with hunting wolves. Some of them are recommended in here by different people. Me included.
    * Lynx tours in Estonia is helped by hunters to track them down. (Hunting Lynx in Estonia is legal)

    And so on and on…

    No matter what you are reading here:
    No, I don´t like hunting. I am even a member in a “predator organization” here in Sweden just because I hate hunting red listed predators. We try put pressure on our government, appeal against hunting, helping farmers build predator fence and many more things…

    I just want to state the facts we are dealing with here.

    While a few of us makes it very clear that they don´t want this trip reports on the site. I do.
    I think it´s better to post trip reports and then it is up to everyone what to make out of it. If it´s something for me or not.
    Insulting people is NOT the way to go.

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